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Post by elth on Jul 2, 2011 5:23:42 GMT
Being attracted to 14 year olds isn't paedophilia, Moo. Paedophilies are attracted to pre-pubescent children, not sexually mature ones. Ok, if you're splitting hairs, hebephilia, a word I have had to look up. Still, with the arbitrary lines, as Stu puts it, is it any worse or better for a 40+ year old man to be doing it? If there's no difference then why try and argue about it? There's definitely a difference. One is being attracted to children, one is being attracted to sexually mature but (probably) emotionally immature young adults. 14 year olds *can* mate - the question is whether they should and, if so, with whom. Children who have not hit puberty cannot - engaging in sexual activity with them will *always* be exploitative. That's the difference. One's gross, one's immoral - both happen to be illegal.
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Post by Moo on Jul 2, 2011 14:12:49 GMT
And even then, there are many 14-16 year old that aren't mature enough to know what's going on, which, in my view, is where there is no difference. I'm baffled trying to understand why you're taking the stance you are other than the "you haven't any children so you can't possibly understand" but that is just condescending and I know you're more intelligent than the majority of people I know.
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Post by elth on Jul 3, 2011 5:07:05 GMT
I think if many 14-16 year olds don't really understand what sex is all about, it's the fault of our society/culture. At that age, they should have spent 5 or 6 years learning about it. Western culture is so rotten at it's core that we don't teach the very fundamental basics of life to children about to be able to engage in procreation because it's embarrassing to adults to do so. It disgusts me. We too often prioritise minimising personal discomfort over protecting children with knowledge.
But even so - and I grant you that your point is true - I don't think 14 year old sex should be though of as immoral or wrong or exploitative in *all* cases just because it is in *some*. Or even *many*. Now, I happen to believe that the laws protecting minors are largely necessary in Western culture, because we do such a bad job of teaching children about sex, but that doesn't make the act itself wrong. We have to protect children legally because too many parents don't protect their children by teaching them.
So when people are disgusted by a 40 year old hitting on a 14 year old, and compare it to pedophilia, it makes me raise an eyebrow. Both are sexually mature, both are capable of making informed decisions - and in an ideal world, both would have the knowledge to make an informed decision. We don't live in that ideal world, or indeed anywhere near it, but that is an issue of culture, not morality.
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Post by Moo on Jul 3, 2011 15:47:02 GMT
Ok Elth, you win. The 14 year old wanted it.
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Post by floplexter on Jul 3, 2011 17:56:00 GMT
Condascending, patronising, call it what you want, I don't really give a fuck, but tuck this thread away somewhere and call me when you have three daughters- 12, 10 and 7.
Then we'll talk.
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Post by floplexter on Jul 3, 2011 18:30:58 GMT
Sorry, that was unnecessary. Consider it withdrawn, it's too late to edit. Cha-ching.
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Post by elth on Jul 4, 2011 10:27:35 GMT
Ok Elth, you win. The 14 year old wanted it. Well done.
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 8:37:36 GMT
My daughter just had teh misfortune to spend the night in a central Manchester hotel (in the Picadilly area) right next to last nights rioting. They were warned not to go out, the restaurent closed as it was on the main thoroughfare that the violence was taking place. So they were told their meals would be delivered to their rooms. Some birthday celebration she had. At least she is safe and sound. Not sure where they left the car, hopefully that is ok too.
Fooking bostord thieves thugs and layabouts, looking for any excuse to riot and loot.
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Post by Moo on Aug 10, 2011 9:25:01 GMT
In before "but it's a political protest" rubbish.
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Post by floplexter on Aug 10, 2011 9:45:44 GMT
I daren't even put words to screen on the matter as I terrify myself with my proto-fascist thoughts...
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 9:53:31 GMT
In before "but it's a political protest" rubbish. Utter shoite. The wrong tactics have been used, there should be a surround and round up policy, then 5 years front line milatary service with only stones and bottles as weapons as they seem to be the preferred weapons of choice. If they hide their faces with hoods and scarves or have stones, bottles or any thing else as a weapons in their hand they are up to no good. That should be followed by 20 years hard labour then a year of rehabilitation back into society. [/Daily Mail Rant]
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Post by floplexter on Aug 10, 2011 10:00:11 GMT
Ah, right. I was thinking more along the lines of "shoot the cunts", but fair play.
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meej
Spider Monkey
Posts: 907
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Post by meej on Aug 10, 2011 10:08:52 GMT
They tried peaceful protests here in Spain. Did not work, as stores complained that sit-ins and public assemblies in several squares in major cities impacted sales. Riot police charges promptly followed in Madrid, Barcelona and Sevilla.
Apparently the only "right tactic" approved is protesting at home in complete silence, maybe with a frown or something.
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 10:12:21 GMT
Ah, right. I was thinking more along the lines of "shoot the cunts", but fair play. I'd do that too, but thought it might be too right wing.
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 10:13:59 GMT
They tried peaceful protests here in Spain. Did not work, as stores complained that sit-ins and public assemblies in several squares in major cities impacted sales. Riot police charges promptly followed in Madrid, Barcelona and Sevilla. Apparently the only "right tactic" approved is protesting at home in complete silence, maybe with a frown or something. These are not really protests though meej.
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meej
Spider Monkey
Posts: 907
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Post by meej on Aug 10, 2011 10:22:29 GMT
Yeah, it's more like an outburst. But the source seems to be the same, and I don't think riot police is the long term solution.
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Post by floplexter on Aug 10, 2011 10:36:34 GMT
There is no source. It's just mass open robbery. They aren't protesting anything, campaigning against anything or want anything done. They're just smashing in shop windows and stealing stuff, then setting fire to places. Absolutely no catalyst.
There, see what you've done, you've got me typing now.
Arshecandlesh.
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Post by elth on Aug 10, 2011 10:44:39 GMT
Yeah, it's more like an outburst. But the source seems to be the same, and I don't think riot police is the long term solution. To be fair, I don't think they're trying to use them as a long term solution, just a very, very short one. Coffers - from what I understand, the looters tend to either run in large packs that the police can't deal with, or in fairly small groups in local neighborhoods who split the second they hear a police siren. By the time the coppers show up, there's nothing there but smashed windows and a car on fire. The sheer number of police probably helped last night. I don't think there's anything remotely political to this looting - it's just kids who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves not giving a fuck about anyone but themselves. The question is why they've got to that point...
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 10:59:32 GMT
The police numbers have been inadequate from the start, blairing sirens always gives teh game away. The strategy is flawed.
Actually they don't all run away and disappear, they have been confronting police knowing there is nothing behind to prevent them from running from a police charge. They scatter when the police do make a charge and they have places to run too.
The large police presence was in London. Cities outside London have smaller forces so cope any way they can. Communities who wen onto the streets to deter rioters from entering their areas were broken up and told to go home by police. So much for communities supporting the enforcement agencies. Though it would have been hard for police to tell if they were troublemakers gathering for more rioting or not I guess.
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Post by elth on Aug 10, 2011 11:20:27 GMT
It's easy to have 20/20 hindsight, but modern police just aren't trained to deal with this sort of thing. And I think the problem is that there aren't any more police. They've already mobilised them all - officers are pulling 30 hours shifts and you just can't expect them to be everywhere. They protect one street and three streets overs shops get destroyed.
I'd expect the regional forces to be bolstered again tonight, but that just opens London back up.
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Aug 10, 2011 11:31:07 GMT
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 11:58:51 GMT
It's easy to have 20/20 hindsight, but modern police just aren't trained to deal with this sort of thing. And I think the problem is that there aren't any more police. They've already mobilised them all - officers are pulling 30 hours shifts and you just can't expect them to be everywhere. They protect one street and three streets overs shops get destroyed. I'd expect the regional forces to be bolstered again tonight, but that just opens London back up. Actually the regional forces are saying they have the numbers to cope, the police are also saying they don't need the army to join in. We'll see. Last I saw was Water Cannons can be deployed at 24 hour notice, seem to me the rioters will have gone by then.
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Post by coffers on Aug 10, 2011 15:41:45 GMT
My daughter just had teh misfortune to spend the night in a central Manchester hotel (in the Picadilly area) right next to last nights rioting. They were warned not to go out, the restaurent closed as it was on the main thoroughfare that the violence was taking place. So they were told their meals would be delivered to their rooms. Some birthday celebration she had. At least she is safe and sound. Not sure where they left the car, hopefully that is ok too. Fooking bostord thieves thugs and layabouts, looking for any excuse to riot and loot. An update, my daughter got away safe and sound around 1pm , leaving early in case the morons started gathering again.
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meej
Spider Monkey
Posts: 907
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Post by meej on Aug 10, 2011 20:31:44 GMT
There is no source. It's just mass open robbery. They aren't protesting anything, campaigning against anything or want anything done. They're just smashing in shop windows and stealing stuff, then setting fire to places. Absolutely no catalyst. They are not protesting, they are acting. We have been told time and again that capitalism works because it is based on the strong feeding on the weak. Well, that's what they are doing. They don't want a campaing pro or against anything, they just want something specific so they'll go grab it. Why not? I don't know about the UK, but for the last 25 years in Spain I've been listening how stupid it was to be naive and try to change things. Things did not need changing, things were just perfect and you had to focus on getting yours. The objective was getting the big plasma tv, the fancy clothes, the i-stuff. Now you come out and say, you can't have those things anymore. Come again? I can see a perfectly good plasma tv from here, pass me one brick and we'll see who can have it. First come first served. Why not?
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Post by hornet on Aug 10, 2011 23:09:34 GMT
There is no source. It's just mass open robbery. They aren't protesting anything, campaigning against anything or want anything done. They're just smashing in shop windows and stealing stuff, then setting fire to places. Absolutely no catalyst. They are not protesting, they are acting. We have been told time and again that capitalism works because it is based on the strong feeding on the weak. Well, that's what they are doing. They don't want a campaing pro or against anything, they just want something specific so they'll go grab it. Why not? I don't know about the UK, but for the last 25 years in Spain I've been listening how stupid it was to be naive and try to change things. Things did not need changing, things were just perfect and you had to focus on getting yours. The objective was getting the big plasma tv, the fancy clothes, the i-stuff. Now you come out and say, you can't have those things anymore. Come again? I can see a perfectly good plasma tv from here, pass me one brick and we'll see who can have it. First come first served. Why not? That's the kiddie. Successive governments are kicking the shit out of the poor in order to pay for the debt racked up by their mates in the City. There are two and a half million people unemployed, while the government's official figures state that there are 300,000 job vacancies in Britain. Welfare and education funding being slashed. The tabloids falling over themselves to demonise the urban poor. A generation of kids growing up in the inner city that the system has completely fucking failed. No, they're not campaigning for anything. No, it's not a political statement. No, it's not a protest. It's opportunism, it's desperation and it's nihilism. Why should poor, not-especially-academic inner-city kids give a fuck about the local community? The community's gone out of its way to tell them they're not a part of it. They've got no education, no money, no jobs and less hope of getting any of them every day as benefits and education budgets are slashed and local ameneties are scaled back and shut down. And yet they're bombarded every day with images of Stuff they should aspire to own. Blah blah blah blah no excuse for looting small local businesses blah blah blah. No, of course it isn't a fucking excuse. Of course looters are to blame for looting. But we're responsible too. We're the ones who elected the people who've fucked things up so spectacularly. We're the ones who've created a cottage industry out of sneering at the poor. We're the ones who demanded that the police crack down on "chavs" and "hoodies" rather than demanding that the government deal with the underlying problems that make it so attractive for young people to just check out of society altogether. Oh, and look. We're doing it again.
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