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Post by Moo on Jan 24, 2007 16:22:20 GMT
Well, getting a crime number is a very good thing, Boony. Let's hope this can be sorted out soonish.
However, lessons to be learned....
1. eBay is evil. 2. If you are going to play with evil, make sure you always send everything throught the post and always with Recorded Delivery. You can make a bit of extra cash this way by rounding up the postage to the nearest quid. (Nic does it all the time) 3. Women cost far too much money to maintain. If you get the chance of a monkey butler, dump Ellie and pay for your new butler. Through PayPal, natch.
:checkit:
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Jan 24, 2007 16:24:11 GMT
No, I wouldn't pay the money to paypal. A crime has been commited in which you have been the victim. Paypal will send you emails and the like, but I would make them work if they haven't already got their hands on the £850.
If it gets to the point where they're threatening to take some for of action against you over the balance, then you'll have to think about what you want to do. But by that point you may have a police crime number and an insurance payout on your side. If you have the police saying that you've been the victim of a crime and an insurance company giving you money for it, then if Paypal are after you for the cash, they're effectively saying the police are wrong.
Tell PayPal you dispute their decision and have reported the matter to the police and see what they say.
(I had previously thought that they'd had the money back off you, rather than just putting your paypal account into the red - and don't forget that they take a percentage off of every transaction, so if you do end up giving them money, don't forget that they've already had some from you and take that into account.)
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Post by coffers on Jan 24, 2007 16:36:46 GMT
Give paypal the crime number and agrue that they aided and abetted a crime, threaten to go to the press with the details, indicating thet the bad press they will get may well harm their business. Credit Card companies have much better means for investigating/dealing with crime than you do. They are just taking the easy option of hitting the victim rather than owning up to having been duped themselves.
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Post by coffers on Jan 24, 2007 16:45:51 GMT
If your insuramnce company do pay up then you will have to pay Paypal the money back, if you have already taken the money from paypal, as you would then have been paid twice for the item.
Still whatever happens make paypal work fr their money, as I said above, they have aided and abetted a crime by their bad decision. They know it will be easier to get the money out of you rather than from the criminal. they have probably already binned the credit card they were using or it was a dodgy one anyway.
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Post by floplexter on Jan 24, 2007 16:46:57 GMT
It's quite stunning that they accepted the buyer's side in this. Incredible.
I've been stung by ebay and trust it not for anything over a tenner. I sent a woman £50 for a baby carseat and she dragged her heels saying she hadn't a box big enough, my mum's in hospital etc etc until she was outside the statutory ebay period of 60 days. Then stopped answering my e-mails, ebay said "sorry, past 60 days, can't do nuffink". I don't ever leave feedback until cash or kit is in my mitt, so they got some stinking feedback, but end of £50. They de-registered some days later and no doubt set up another scam account.
Not quite £850, but I feel for you Boo. As Mulder and Scully used to say, Trust No-one, especially not the Belgians.
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Post by coffers on Jan 24, 2007 16:47:35 GMT
A thought, do you have original receipts etc for the MAC and teh serial number? All these will aid your case and any claim you make.
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Jan 24, 2007 16:52:01 GMT
And do what I do - never buy anything from EBay unless the seller's reputation is higher than the number of quid you're going to be sending them, (within reason), and don't sell anything to anyone with a low rep or a new account.
A hard way to learn these lessons, but my experience with EBay has been virtually faultless, outside of a couple of people claiming to be selling gold, when what they were actually sellng was gold plate.
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Post by coffers on Jan 24, 2007 16:54:22 GMT
Boo!
You must not pay Paypal any money, they have a fraud department to deal with these matters, Paypal have been defrauded, not you, they must get the police in to investigate further.
Write to them and ask them why they paid the money back to the criminal before consulting you/ellie. They should not pay money out without investigating the incident properly. It would be worth taking legal advice on this, you can get 30 minutes initial consultation free.
If you go this route then try to get a no win no fee deal.
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Post by floplexter on Jan 24, 2007 16:57:05 GMT
You can ring one of those dodgy geezers on the telly, who can get mass murderers out on a technicality, if you give them a pound.
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Post by coffers on Jan 24, 2007 17:05:08 GMT
Citizens Advice can be quite helpful as they have legal connections who can offer advice too.
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Post by Sonic on Jan 24, 2007 22:00:49 GMT
A bugger, this not a nice thing to have done. I've never bought anything off eBay.
As per you Boony, I know nought to do on a similar matter. This advice is really good :thumb:
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Post by elth on Jan 25, 2007 4:08:37 GMT
Aye, 'tis fraud not theft. I concur, don't pay back Paypal - as far as you're concerned, you gave up the goods and got your payment. What then happened between them and the buyer is their problem, not yours. If they can prove you kept the goods (and the word of a deregistered account, when you have a crime number, is fuck all evidence to the contrary) then you'd be in trouble but I take it there's no chance of that happening... As before, if the insurance company cough up, then you have to pay them back to avoid committing fraud yourself but as it stands, they're the ones who bought some cock and bull story from a con man, not you. You got your money... Never sell anything big to a new account Never buy anything big from a non-long term user
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Post by DC on Feb 7, 2007 9:23:09 GMT
Beginners error; but this is quite common. My mum had one a couple of years back. Involved a 'bloke' in Malaysia wanting a certain phone and that phone happening to be my mums she had for sale. Two days of conversation, all seemed genuine, payment instantly through Paypal. Mum boxes it and mails it same day express international delivery job. 6 hours later the money is nabbed out of the Paypal account as having been paid fraudulently etc. Mum is down £150 and a shiny mobile. She starts off by phoning the Post Office to see if they can put a stop on the item - but the mail cannot be tampered with. So she pursues further up the chain to the international mail depot (apparently in Cumberland somewhere) and speaks to a guy who says there's nowt he can do due to the no tampering rule - but he'll keep an eye out for the package and try and get someone higher up the chain to authorise something. Higher up the chain fails. Mum gives up hope. The next day she gets a call from the bloke in Cumberland. Oddly enough a package has come through to be shipped out, but it appeared to have mysteriously lost its Mail To address. As a result it will have to be returned to sender. So. Post Office = suck. Bloke working for the Post Office in Cumberland = legend. Mum got the phone back, then filed all the paperwork she could against the bidder in Malaysia including (with the help of Ebay) finding the original Credit Card details they'd listed in order to register with Ebay prior to changing it to this ripped off card. Your tale, like others, is one of hundreds: www.aboutpaypal.org/using_stolen_credit_cardswww.aboutpaypal.org/paypal_fraudwww.entrepreneurs-journey.com/29/credit-card-fraud-and-online-payment-processors/etc etc
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 9:56:18 GMT
So basically even if you have proof that the item was delivered intact and everything is rosy, accepting payment via Paypal or even credit cards direct is a pile of shoite. All because everything favours the fraudulent customer who can charge back multiple times and no one with the power to do so will challenge them.
Good work on the return of your mothers goods thought DC.
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Post by Moo on Feb 7, 2007 10:03:07 GMT
Aye, that was sneaky. I like sneaky.
Any news on your incident, Boo?
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 10:09:13 GMT
We're filing an insurance claim, but haven't done so yet as we're still looking for receipts or other proof of ownership of the Mac. We ended up paying Paypal, though, as they were making life awkward. For some reason, they changed our money into Euros and then back into Pounds, and made about 20 quid on the deal.
After about 3 or 4 emails from Ellie, though, they have finally given us a £20 goodwill gesture. Woohoo!
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Post by Moo on Feb 7, 2007 10:31:21 GMT
I can think of a gesture you'd lke to give them.
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Feb 7, 2007 10:38:00 GMT
That's outrageous. They got defrauded and they're making life awkward in your direction? And now you're out £800 and hoping the insurance company will help out, while PayPal get off scott free for being stupid.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:12:19 GMT
Find out where thier registered office is and take them to small claims court for the money you paid back. It won't cost you a lot even if you lose.
If you win and they don't pay up, get the bailiffs in to sieze assets. Play them at their own game.
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 11:18:24 GMT
Coffers - I really can't be bothered with all that. Plus, we don't actually have any documentation that we're in the right. I don't see what a court could do about it. If we can find receipts or some other form of proof of ownership, then I'd hope the insurance would pay up. If they don't, then I'll be happy to pursue some other avenue of compensation, but for now it just seems like making a big fooking deal about the whole thing when all I want is to quietly get my money back.
I hate the idea of taking someone to court, I really do. Legal fees, lawyers, all that bullshit is a whole world I really don't understand and don't want to get involved in at all, if I can help it.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:22:50 GMT
That's the beauty of small claims, you don't need lawyers. Yo pay a fee to lodge your claim, present your evidence, the company present theirs and the Judge decides either for or against. If I Understand correctly; If you lose, all you should lose is the up front fee. If you win, you can claim your fee back and costs of persuing the matter as well. ie. charges for letters written and sent, time wasted, etc.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:25:21 GMT
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 11:25:29 GMT
And how much is this initial fee? Roughly?
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:30:06 GMT
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Post by Moo on Feb 7, 2007 11:30:34 GMT
From the first link, that is broken....
"How much will it cost and what if I cannot afford it?
The fee you will have to pay to the court will depend on the amount you are claiming. In certain circumstances you may not have to pay the fee. See the information on County Court Fees which will tell you about fees and whether or not you can claim remission or exemption. Staff at any county court will also be able to give you these details. "
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