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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:31:39 GMT
I've removed the first link, it's now the second link and works.
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Post by Moo on Feb 7, 2007 11:31:47 GMT
...or look at the link Coffers provided before I replied. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Feb 7, 2007 11:35:08 GMT
A guy in The Elbow made the papers last week through his use of small claims. He was sick of his business' bank charges, because they were charging him £40 to send him a letter saying he was £4 overdrawn and the like. So he took them to small claims. Under the banking regulations, the banks are allowed to charge for letters, but they're not allowed to make an "excessive" charge. They knew they'd have to justify their charges in court by itemising how they got to £40 and so they settled, out of court, by returning all of his charges for the past few years. He walked out with a couple of grand bank in his account. He then moved onto his next bank and they did the same. Both banks also paid his Small Claims filing fees. ![](http://www.geocities.com/jacquesdebohun/smilies/grin.gif)
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Post by Moo on Feb 7, 2007 11:37:09 GMT
Banks are horrible institutions.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:39:20 GMT
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 11:41:43 GMT
I'm still not sure about that, though. As Ellie says to me: "We wouldn't win against paypal, their policies are tight, and I lost the chargeback because of not following the policies," and I kinda agree with that. I'm loath to waste a further £80...
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:41:45 GMT
The best one was the guy who did something similar to his bank RBS I think, he won his judgement, they failed to pay up so he sent the bailiffs in to seize assets. They raided a branch in London and took out all the tills, PC's and funiture. The tills were full of money. The bank had to pay up and some more to get everything back. They also had to pay the bailiffs fees. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:44:38 GMT
The chargeback might be an unfair clause in the contract. They will use it until they are challenged. I can see why you are loathe to take them on more, risking furtehr loss.
I feel your insurance company will probably kick you in the teeth too, they probably have a clause in the policy to avoid paying up where you have handed goods over without out having proof of reciept or something. Insurance companies are crafty in their ways of avoiding payouts.
Good luck though.
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Post by DC on Feb 7, 2007 11:45:36 GMT
I'm still not sure about that, though. As Ellie says to me: "We wouldn't win against paypal, their policies are tight, and I lost the chargeback because of not following the policies," and I kinda agree with that. I'm loath to waste a further £80... Like Coffs said - get the free consultation with a Solicitor. He'll usually advise you of your chances. I'd also go the route of getting witness statements. Lie if you need to - just get x and x to say they saw the Mac change hands etc etc.
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Feb 7, 2007 11:46:05 GMT
To be honest, 800, I think you've fucked yourself by paying PayPal back. They had no leg to stand on, but won anyway and I wouldn't be sure about going through the small claims to get money back that you gave them, because they were getting "awkward."
Businesses always make threats when they feel you owe them money, even if there's no defensible basis for them, because they know they work and they know that a lot of individuals aren't used to the aggressive behaviour and have strong "forget the whole thing" urges. :moop:
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:49:59 GMT
That's how the banks work with their charges, if you threaten them with court and issue papers, they settle out of court. That's because they don't want a legal precedent set in court when the claiment wins. If that happened they would be stuffed big time.
For every customer that takes them on successfully there are probably 100 who don't bother and just pay up, because it's too much effort.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 11:52:06 GMT
If you don't fancy the free consultation with a solicitor then go to citizens advice, they are usually very good at letting you know what chance you really have at winning. They can certainly tell you how you stand in law.
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 12:04:25 GMT
To be honest, 800, I think you've fucked yourself by paying PayPal back. They had no leg to stand on, but won anyway and I wouldn't be sure about going through the small claims to get money back that you gave them, because they were getting "awkward." Businesses always make threats when they feel you owe them money, even if there's no defensible basis for them, because they know they work and they know that a lot of individuals aren't used to the aggressive behaviour and have strong "forget the whole thing" urges. ![](http://www.geocities.com/jacquesdebohun/smilies/moop.gif) I agree, but Ellie was getting twitchy, and it was her Paypal account, her name on the line. There's only so many times I can say "Don't pay them, they're cunts." If I'd have been involved in the sale from the start, we would never have been in this situation, as I wouldn't have let the fookers buy it in the first place, with a 0 rated ebay account. But it's all very well to say that with hindsight. I think we're going to put it down as a very expensive lesson learnt. Assuming the insurance don't come up with the goods. Free solicitor's advice might be a good avenue, but I think we're already fucked on this one. I hate fucking paypal.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 12:15:55 GMT
I've never sold anything on ebay, but if I do I will never use paypal after all the horror stories I've heard. It seems That even a genuine merchant credit card account could be fraught with danger too.
Go for the cash and cheque route, especially with high value items and don't release any goods until everything has cleared. Also get proof of identity and address details (even then it could be a 'borrowed address').
If it means you don't get a sale at least you still have the goods.
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Post by Boony on Feb 7, 2007 12:16:53 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree, Coffers.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 12:24:37 GMT
As for proof of ID & address that should be driving licence, Passport, utility bills etc. Online checks of credit details coiuld be worth it for high value items too.
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meej
Spider Monkey
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Post by meej on Feb 7, 2007 13:26:45 GMT
Quite frankly, I think some of you are blaming paypal for things that are not their fault.
Contrary to what coffers said, fraud can be done by the buyer or the seller. Online transactions involve a measure of trust that leaves you open for rip-off. But basically I love paypal and would not buy overseas using any other method as it's simply too complex and too expensive to do. Domestically, however, I've never used paypal and I don't think I would as there are other methods which are easy, fast, secure and cheap. And I think my highest online purchase has been around £80, a one-off thing that had me fretting as I rarely venture beyond the £20 mark.
The problem is not paypal, the problem is that you sold a very expensive item to a zero-reputation buyer and then neglected to get him to sign a delivery note. Which is the kind of error that anyone can do (see dc's hot mama) but which has little to do with paypal or ebay iself.
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Post by coffers on Feb 7, 2007 14:38:50 GMT
Yes there are frauds on both sides of the fence meej, I agree on that, and the loss of money is very much down to lack of checks on Ellie's behalf but just looking at DC's links shows that even when proof of delivery is in place credit Card Charge Backs can still occur with no comeback. In one case the charge back occured three times for the same item. Even though PP and teh card company knew fraud was being committed they did nothing about it.
Paying back a buyer before the case avenue has been fully explored is very much Paypal's fault meej.
I have never had any problem buying with paypal, but then I rarely buy on ebay and then only low value items.
In the case of Ellie, if the buyer was going to collect I would have asked for Cash on Collection rather than the paypal route anyway, especially as the item was 'high value'.
Unfortunately it's an expensive lesson, but it doesn't excuse Paypal doing nothing about trying to stop these fraud's being carried out, or getting to t he root cause.
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Baz
Pantfish
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I take photos of cocks and look at them longingly
Arbeitslos und ausgelacht.
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Post by Baz on Oct 5, 2007 23:00:56 GMT
Someone bought £1820.95 worth of plane tickets, using my hard earned money.
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Post by coffers on Oct 6, 2007 0:42:07 GMT
How did they manage that? You give out your credit card details or fall victim to a phishing attack?
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Post by floplexter on Oct 6, 2007 7:46:52 GMT
Right, see you in a week guys.
That's me off to Ludlow.
Ludlow, Hawaii.
Ciao.
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Post by Mr Bismarck's Electric Donkey on Oct 6, 2007 13:57:22 GMT
On Baz's credit card?
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Post by floplexter on Oct 9, 2007 20:46:14 GMT
You're not slow, stu. Even though it was subtle.
[/pops ludlow]
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Post by coffers on Oct 9, 2007 22:15:10 GMT
Wow they have the T'internet in darkest Ludlow. Whatever next?
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Baz
Pantfish
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I take photos of cocks and look at them longingly
Arbeitslos und ausgelacht.
Posts: 406
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Post by Baz on Oct 14, 2007 13:27:40 GMT
How did they manage that? I don't know. The only websites that know my card details are Play, Amazon and Paypal.
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